"Modify ticket" view is broken

[anonymous]

At the "Modify ticket" view is a field "Add/remove from Cc" - this term is much longer in some other languages than english, for example german. In Firefox, this just looks bad - in Opera it's horrible.

In the attachment you see the "Modify ticket" view in german, viewed by Opera 12.00.

[Christian Boos]

A good example for the need of verifying how the translations look in context…

[anonymous]

Fix for german translation

[Christian Boos]

(like any l10n related change, would be good for 1.0 but not blocking the beta)

[Felix Schwarz]

I see the problem though I'm not too convinced of the proposed translation. I emailed other past contributors if they have a good idea (as I'm short on time these days) but how about "Auf CC setzen"?

I'll wait another 1-2 days and change the translation then, depending on the suggestions we have then.

[anonymous]

This problem also affects french and dutch translation of trac.

[Steffen Hoffmann]

I understand Felix here, because we don't have any "CC" in the web-UI but "Kopie".

I've a few more proposals to choose from (starting with current state followed from best sounding - IMHO - to shortest:

• Zur CC-Liste hinzufügen/entfernen:
• Ein-/Austragung Kopie-Liste für:
• Zu Kopie-Liste hinzu/löschen:
• Ein-/Austragung von Kopie:
• Ein-/Austrag Kopie für:
• Ein-/Austrag in Kopie:
• Kopie Ein-/Austrag:

• Add/Remove from Cc:

I doubt, that we really wish to choose mainly based on shortness, because translations should really aim for better understanding in the foreign language. For acronyms like "Cc" this is next to impossible without allowing for longer terms.

So maybe this is even impossible in some languages, and it would be better to set different msgids based on current value (set —> "Remove ..", unset —> "Add ..")?

[anonymous]

"Auf CC setzen" is not my favorite because this would mean "Auf Carbon Copy setzen" which doesn't make any sense. "Ein-/Austrag" or "hinzufügen/löschen" is not necessary in my opinion because through the checkbox it's clear that it is a "Yes" or "No" choice. Other proposals:

• Auf Kopie-Liste setzen
• Erhalte Kopie
• Ticket beobachten

That aren't word-to-word translations, but they're short and more understandable.

[Felix Schwarz]

I like "Ticket beobachten" because that really makes sense - because you get notifications also in the future ('Kopie' seems to be more a one-time thing). I think I go with that term unless someone vetos.

Is there a point in updating Trac's (English) string to 'Watch ticket'? I like that better than the current 'Add/Remove from Cc', I think it's far more understandable for the non-techie user.

[anonymous]

Replying to fschwarz:

I like "Ticket beobachten" because that really makes sense - because you get notifications also in the future ('Kopie' seems to be more a one-time thing). I think I go with that term unless someone vetos.

I wholeheartedly agree. The other wordings proposed so far do sound a bit clumsy. After all, there's a tooltip on the checkbox, if you need more information.

[Felix Schwarz]

I noticed there are some more messages which need to be adjusted so it makes sense:

• "Add to Cc"
• "Remove from Cc"

Any proposals for these?

[anonymous]

Replying to fschwarz:

• "Add to Cc"
• "Remove from Cc"

Not sure about the context they're used in. If those strings have similar width restrictions as the "Add/remove from Cc", I'd vote for "Beobachten"/"Nicht beobachten".

By the way, would anybody mind replacing "beobachten" by "verfolgen"? I'd prefer this over "beobachten" simply because it's shorter, although I must admit that "verfolgen" has its share of ambiguity.

[anonymous]

Replying to anonymous:

although I must admit that "verfolgen" has its share of ambiguity.

That's exatly why I'd prefer "beobachten" which is only one character longer than "verfolgen" ;)

[anonymous]

Replying to anonymous:

Replying to anonymous:

although I must admit that "verfolgen" has its share of ambiguity.

That's exatly why I'd prefer "beobachten" which is only one character longer than "verfolgen" ;)

This maps pretty well to the effective pixel width using fixed-width fonts indeed! For variable-width fonts, things are a bit different. A quick analysis of the pixel widths that my browser needs to render the words (using a variable-width font) yields 76 pixels for "beobachten" versus 59 pixels for "verfolgen", which would save approximately 22 percent of horizontal screen space. Not too shabby, if you ask me! :-)

[Christian Boos]

Replying to fschwarz:

Is there a point in updating Trac's (English) string to 'Watch ticket'? I like that better than the current 'Add/Remove from Cc', I think it's far more understandable for the non-techie user.

I don't think it's a good idea to change the current labeling, as there are no changes to the feature itself. We have plenty of enhancement requests there (e.g. ticket:8677#comment:7, #9971) and I think it will be better to change the text only once the Watch/Unwatch feature itself gets updated.

[junglevip@…]

I presume symbols are the same in all languages so what is wrong with changing:

Zur CC-Liste hinzufügen/entfernen

to:

Zur CC-Liste ±

[junglevip@…]

..or using the German equivalent of Change, Alter or Modify instead of Add/Remove

[Felix Schwarz]

Replying to junglevip@…:

Zur CC-Liste ±

I just showed this to a colleague and he did not understand what +/- should have meant (confirming my initial feeling). Also "CC-Liste" is not really a German word. Furthermore I think a translation should not limit itself to a word-by-word translation if rephrasing makes more sense for the language.

[Christian Boos]

Replying to junglevip@…:

..or using the German equivalent of Change, Alter or Modify instead of Add/Remove

Right, so why not simply: Cc ändern (as suggested by one of my beta-tester ;-) )

[junglevip@…]

Thanks for the reply - unfortunately my German is limited because its based on what I pick up when I visit rarely. I think my other suggestion was better, plus see cboos followup.

Replying to fschwarz:

Replying to junglevip@…:

Zur CC-Liste ±

I just showed this to a colleague and he did not understand what +/- should have meant (confirming my initial feeling). Also "CC-Liste" is not really a German word. Furthermore I think a translation should not limit itself to a word-by-word translation if rephrasing makes more sense for the language.

[anonymous]

Replying to cboos:

Replying to junglevip@…:

..or using the German equivalent of Change, Alter or Modify instead of Add/Remove

Right, so why not simply: Cc ändern (as suggested by one of my beta-tester ;-) )

Don't wanna sound nit-picky here, but I'm more in favour of something along the lines of "Ticket beobachten". I'd even favour simply "Beobachten", since the ticket context clearly is being given by the whole "Modify Ticket" box.

I prefer "beobachten" since it's more intuitive in regards to the check box that it's attached to:

• Checked = you're observing the ticket;
• Not checked = you're not observing.

This holds true each time you modify the ticket. Compare that to the meaning of "Cc ändern":

• Checked = you're changing Cc — You're changing Cc every time you modify the ticket?
• Unchecked = you're not changing Cc — Not even when clicking submit the very first time you unchecked the box?

Honestly, that doesn't make sense, if you ask me.

[Peter Suter]

If I understand correctly there are actually three labels:

1. "Add to Cc" ("Zur CC-Liste hinzufügen")
2. "Remove from Cc" ("Aus der CC-Liste entfernen")
3. "Add/Remove from Cc" ("Zur CC-Liste hinzufügen/entfernen")

The first is shown when Trac knows your email and it is not yet on the Cc list. A checked checkbox adds it to the list. An unchecked checkbox does not change the list.

The second is shown when Trac knows your email and it is already on the Cc list. A checked checkbox removes it from the list. An unchecked checkbox does not change the list.

The third is shown when Trac doesn't know your email yet. Now what happens depends on what email address you put in the author field, and if it is already on the Cc list.

---

I agree with comment:6 and comment:15 that "Cc" is not a German word. TracTermsDe already contains "Kopie"/"Kopie an" etc. as the preferred translation for "Cc". And "Kopie" is already used e.g. on the Custom Query page, in the Ticket box and in the Modify Ticket box for users with TICKET_EDIT_CC permission.

So to me it seems the Modify Ticket box for users without TICKET_EDIT_CC permission (where the mentioned three labels appear) should also use:

1. "Kopie an"
2. "Keine Kopie an"
3. "(Keine) Kopie an"

(The tooltip should also be changed to something like "Mit diesem Ankreuzfeld können Sie Kopien an ihre E-Mail-Adresse aktivieren oder deaktivieren.")

Switching from "Kopie" to "Beobachten" to me would only make sense if all usages would be switched consistently.

[anonymous]

Personally I would go for Watch/Beobachten. This is a rather short term in nearly all languages so it makes perfect sense…

[fbrettschneider@…]

My experience with that ticket field and its German translation "Kopie":

1. 95% of all colleagues cannot recognize the field as listing of email addresses or user acronyms. I always have to explain the meaning of the field.
2. If I explain "It's CC", half of the colleagues say "I see!".
3. If I explain "It's CC like in emails", all colleagues say "I see!".
4. If you used "Watch/Beobachten", people would continue to ask what the meaning of the field actually is, and what the should type there in.

So I suggest to name it as what it is: "also email to" (German: "E-Mail auch an"), or at least "also CC to" (German: "CC auch an"), though the latter is not that intuitive.

[fbrettschneider@…]

added falkb

[Felix Schwarz]

In order to help getting Trac 1.0 out of the door, I just went for 'beobachten' which seems to have most backing here. Commits r11249 and r11250 (I planned to separate general translation updates from changes related to this bug, didn't work out, sorry).

Also I have to say that my free time for Trac translations is pretty scarce so if someone else is willing to help out (maybe even stepping in as German translation maintainer) I'd be happy.